The Curse of Low Tier Mains

This is a discussion about how people treat certain players who decide to main characters lower on the tier list. I am a believer that most of the characters are able to be played at a very high level, high enough to win any of our current national events, if played properly. In the future this will change as there are characters who are definitively better than some others. Like a Shiek will be better that a Mii Swordsfighter, it just will happen as both characters have maximum levels they can be played at, and Shiek's frame data allows for her cap to be higher. But I feel we currently treat people developing the game play of low teir characters unfairly. I heard someone say once, I believe it was Esam, but I am not positive, say that if you decide to play a low tier character, you aren't actually competitive. He claimed you didn't want to be successful in the game, you just wanted to be the best as that character maybe, but not the best in the game. Now I feel that this is false. Some people can see certain things in characters that the general public does or didn't see until they brought it to light. And to this I will give the example of Hyuga, the best Mexican Smash 4 player there is, who plays none other than Toon Link. Hyuga really showed the world what a competitive Toon link can do, and I feel that if there weren't people such as Hyuga, the game wouldn't develop to it's true potential. There are many characters that are able to be played at high levels, even those that we consider currently to be low tiers. I think that currently, low tier mains are just as deadly as an equally skilled high tier main. For this I will site my own situation. I currently main Charizard, just about the bottom of the bottom on the tier list. My brother and best friend, main Cloud and Zero Suit Samus. We are all fairly equal in skill level, we all have our own unique strengths amongst each other, I have superior tech skill, my brother is better at getting reads and reactions, my friend is really great at turning from offensive to defensive, but we pretty much go back and forth, despite me using a character that is thought to be much worse. Like I said previously, characters aren't everything when we talk about how successful the character can be, its the players who pick them.

The Misconception Surrounding the Phrase "Match Up"

Many people in the community like to refer to character match up statistics, or how likely one character is to beat another character, as something like a proven statistic. Which it's not. People refer to these "MU" statistics like they are set in stone and that if you play a certain two characters against each other, the favored will win x amount of times out of 10.  This is blatantly wrong in the current game of Smash for Wii U. The idea behind this misconception does have some truth. Some characters struggle against other characters. Like a character that has a hard time recovering, such as Little Mac, would struggle against some other character that is able to get people off the stage easily and gimp them. This doesn't mean that the match up is fixed though. The most important thing in any match of any Super Smash Bros. game is the player. The player's skill level is incredibly important, as they are better with their character, take less hits, make better moves, and overall play very well. Their knowledge is important, such as if they know Luigi has a frame 2 Nair, they will shield in between a combo to block the nair, then re grab. Character knowledge is important for every character too. If you don't know that Ness has an insane back throw, chances are you're going to lose a stock pretty early to it when you play against a Ness player. A players fundamentals are important too. Any player could have insane combo knowledge, but if they lack fundamentals such as teching, mixing up, shielding projectiles on the move, and other basic things that don't have anything to do with the character that you are playing, they are going to lose to someone who just maybe does one hit at a time, and doesn't combo at all, but has really good fundamental skills. Now, returning to this idea of a Match up, people refer to things such as , oh Ryu has a 40/60 match up against Pikachu. So, they are saying he has a slight disadvantage against Pikachu, fair enough, but the fact that they refer to the match up as a statistic baffles me. How do you know that the Ryu doesn't just practice all day against his brother who plays Pikachu, or that the Pikachu hasn't played against many Ryu players. The idea that there is a rate that the character should win and lose is very poorly designed and should be something we as a community strive to get rid of. Any character could beat any other character, even at high level play, and it doesn't matter what these statistics say. Who actually sat down and calculated these stats anyways?

Character Analysis - Charizard (Part 2)

In my last post we explored some of his kill options, now we're going to talk about him as a character and where I see him in the game. Charizard is big, can live long, can kill early, can have grab comboes, is fast, and has a lot of heavy/super armor moves that allow him to attack through being hurt. He has a lot of things going for him. But, he is big. I mean BIG. Look at him compared to someone like Pikachu, or Olimar, and you will see just how massive he is. He is super easy to combo since he is so large, and he is very easy rack up damage on. He lacks good frame data, meaning his moves don't come out as fast as some other character's moves. So obviously he has some really good positives, and some blatant negatives.

Now that those have been addressed, I want to say where I see him. I think of him as a mid tier, or maybe even low tier. The character himself is not great. Although, he is good if you are a good player. He can showcase your fundamentals very well, with many tools for edge guarding, able to live long, he is able to kill a lot easier than most characters, and can get in to punish your opponent quickly because he is so fast. His punish game is fairly strong, if your opponent hits the ground you can hit him from across the stage almost with your side special, dealing 19% and potentially killing. He can punish your opponent landing on the side of the stage with his forward and down smashes covering teching left , neutral, or right.

Charizard struggles making it to the ground, and is very easily juggled in the air because of his size, poor air dodge, and slow fall speed. Charizard however is very fun, kills very early, and is an awesome character.

Little Mac after the 1.1.4 Patch

Little mac is a character that almost everyone in this game have tried to play at some point. He is just too fun not to have tried. His ground mobility, his fast aerials, and his insanely strong smash attacks all just add up to one really fun character. But, in this most recent patch, he became a lot more competitively viable. He received buffs to his up smash, forward smash, down smash, as well as his up tilt. They all got more increased damage, but decreased knock back a little bit. Up tilt has a better hit angle so it can hit people from other ways and can combo into other moves easier. His moves are safer on shield now after the patch, meaning they have more hit stun on the shield, or they have less hit lag for you. The mobility of Little mac is insane, and his smash attacks are almost impossible to punishable. This is going to force people to block less against him than they used to, meaning people are going to need to start fighting him straight up, which is something that he accels at as he is a boxer. Down smash is a great way to trap people now as it can't be punished if they shield it, and if they roll they are going to be hit by it anyways. He still does have some large issues of the character, such as being very poor at aerial fights, and he has a very hard time getting down to the ground. The character himself is very easy to beat, just don't fight him on the ground. But if the right player knows how to abuse his mechanics on the ground, can consistently land his K.O. Punch, doesn't get hit off much, applies good pressure, it can all add up to one scary character. Little mac is just going to be that way, he is someone who can destroy you because he landed his ko punch, or he is going to fall victim to his flaws of being bad off of the stage.

In my opinion, Little Mac did become a ton better after this patch, he is able to confirm into his smash attacks for massive amounts of damage, and he can combo into many other things with how amazing his frame data is. His super armor on his smash attacks makes him pretty nutty to straight up fight, and he is overall a really strong character. He does however have major flaws, and these flaws are just fundamental by the nature of his character, a boxer. He isn't an air fighter, he isn't going to go off the stage or " out of his ring" to finish an opponent off the ledge. It's just not his play style, and the player needs to respect his limitations, and use his advantages on the ground to the best of their ability.

This weekend in Smash 4 (Feb 18th)

This weekend we had PAX, a tournament held in the North East, that saw many competitive players attending it. Notably, Mew2King, Zero, ANTI, Vinnie, Void, Foe, and many more. The event was streamed by VG Bootcamp, and many of the matches were posted on their youtube page. This event was one of the larger ones that we see, at least in this time of the year, and had a pool of over $10,000 to be given away. In the end Zero ended up taking the tournament, without ever even losing a set. He won over Void in the grand finals, Zero used Diddy Kong and Void used Sheik. Zero won the set, 3-1 over Void.

After watching the grand finals set, I want to discuss just how high level of playing this was. I will link you to the video of the grand finals if you haven't seen it already. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNgitRHw7SI
Now Zero is probably considered a Shiek main, but he doesn't play Shiek dittos usually, and instead opts to go Diddy Kong. His playing in this set was phenomenal, so great that it has convinced me to try to solo main Diddy Kong for a little while and improve my playing of the character. Zero was able to in one game come back after being down 64% on his last stock, and then immediately was able to get void to the exact same percent that he was at, and then close out the game. Zero was able to win surprisingly easily for how amazing of a player Void is. I think it just truly shows how advanced Zero really is in our current meta game.

Character Viability

Today I want to talk about what makes a character viable, and what it means to be viable. In the current meta, being viable means having the ability to compete, and to what extent is depending on who you ask. To me being viable means being able to be played and able to beat a majority of the cast, and succeed in tournaments. So, to be viable isn't asking much of the character, but it does ask a lot of the player. Some characters need the player to be better to do well than other characters, such as Ganondorf, you have to be better at Ganon to win a tournament then you have to be at Rosalina and Luma, simply because of the character. That doesn't mean that a good Ganon couldn't beat a good Rosalina and Luma. So, in my opinion, much of the cast is considered viable. According to others or my definition of Competitively Viable, a character would have to be able to win or top at a national event. This raises the bar a lot more, as many of the upper level players play characters considered "high tier" such as shiek, mario, cloud, and zero suit samus. These characters are currently fairly well understood and developed. My argument here is that there are many more competitively viable characters than we currently think there are. The game play for many of the mid and low tier characters is very underdeveloped, there are a few good players learning what they can do, but not nearly the same amount as the higher tier characters get. I am not saying that all characters are equal here. I don't think that Zelda is as good as Shiek, or that Bowser is better than Mario, but what I am trying to say is that simply because the character isn't as good doesn't mean you can't be good with the character. Probably my second or arguably best characters is Charizard, who as many of you know is notorious for being awful. He is just the character that clicks with me, and because of that I am able to play him at a high level, and able to compete against characters like Ryu, and Bayonetta, characters that should have a good " Match up" against him. Match ups aren't everything, and neither is a characters data. Having the feel for a character and enjoying playing the character means a lot more for when you are choosing a character to pick for your main. If you like a character more,  chances are you are going to have more success and more fun when you are learning how to play them, or their combos, etc.. Don't let what the tier lists say prevent you from picking up a character you want to play competitively, it sure hasn't stopped me picking the character I love to play.

Character Analysis - Charizard (Part 1 - Kill Options)

Hey everyone, I am here with a character that is kind of overlooked by most of the community. I recently started playing Charizard and wanted to analyze him and give my opinion on him. So, here goes nothing.

Charizard is seen as one of the worst characters in the game, I however don't see how that is possible. Charizard is very fast. He is the 15th fastest walker in the game, and the 8th fastest when dashing. This is quite increible considiering his size. Charizard is however quite large unfortunately meaning it is very easy to hit him. He is one of the biggest character models in the game, in height and just hit boxes. This does come with some benefits though. Charizard is the 4th heaviest character in the game. He comes in weighing an impressive amount while still being agile makes a deadly combo. He is able to live very long, and thus be able to rack up rage quickly while still being able to live. If he is able to maintain dealing almost as much damage as he takes, or trading percent, he will win almost any fight, as he kills earlier than most characters, and lives longer than most too. So, let's talk about some of his kill options.

Charizard has a ton of kill options. Most of his moves can kill quite early. Off of a grab, his forward, back, and up throws all can kill, each being the best at certain percents. On stages with platforms, charizard can get quite early kills with his up throw, as it will bring the opponent crashing down into the platform at very high speeds, and have lots of knock back. On Duck Hunt, Charizard can kill off the top of the tree in the early 40% range on most characters with his up throw. This is also the case on dreamland and town and city but not to quite the same extent. Charizard has a huge hurt box and knock back on his down smash and forward smash. Both are great kill options. Another awesome kill option for him are many of his aerial attacks. His up air is an insane kill option, and can kill some characters in the 70% range. His back aerial also has a ton of knock back and growth, meaning you can get kills very early off stage with it. Charizard can also use his forward air for kills but not quite as early as the other options. Charizards' up special is another great kill move. He can kill light characters off the top extremely easily. I have gotten kills as early as 30%... which is ridiculous if you are unfamiliar with the kill percents of this game. Charizard also has another kill option with his side b. This move propels you across the stage in a hurling ball of flame, rock, and debris, and obliterates any opponents in it's path dealing 19% and tons of knock back. Can be easily comboed into off of a forward throw or a back throw.

Marth and Lucina after the 1.1.4 Update

These two always seem to get the same buffs at the same time, almost like they are clones...

This aside, Marth and Lucina got some amazing buffs in this latest patch. Marth got a kill confirm off of his down throw, both recieved damage buffs, range buffs, and much more. Let's get into it and I will talk more about how viable I think they are after this updates.

Lucinan Changes

• Jab 1:
  • Duration: 28F -> 25F
  • Hitbox X Position: 6.5 -> 7
• Jab 2 Hitbox X Position: 6.5 -> 7
• Ftilt:
  • Duration: 36F -> 33F
  • Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
  • Second Hitbox X Position: 2 -> 2.5
  Dtilt:
  • Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 8.2
  • Second Hitbox X/Y Position: 15.2/3.2 -> 16.7/2.7
  Nair:
  • Nair First Hit:
    • Damage: 3.345 -> 4.2
    • Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
  • Nair Second Hit:
    • Damage: 7.6 -> 8.5
    • Hitbox X Position: 6.5 -> 7.5
• Fair:
  • Damage: 8.5 -> 10.5
  • Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
• Bair:
  • Damage: 9.975 -> 11.8
  • Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
  • Second Hitbox X Position: 2 -> 2.5
• Uair Damage: 9.975 -> 11.4
• Dair Normal/Meteor Damage: 11.4/13.3 -> 12.3/14.2
• Utilt Duration: 36F -> 33F
• Dsmash Duration: 64F -> 54F
• Dancing Blade:
• Startup: 7F -> 6F
• Total Ground/Air Duration: 42/32F -> 41/31F

So overall, these changes might not mean much to you, so i will try to break it down. On her neutral air, she recieved damage buffs, and a change to the hitbox, extending it about 15% further than it used to go. Her forward air had the same thing, increasing damage by 2 points. Back air  got more changes and deals more damage now and is a ton better at killing. Up air had damage in creased, down air had a damage increase. The lag on the end of some moves was decreased, such as down smash, up tilt, side b, and Jab.

Here are the changes to Marth

• Jab 1:
  • Duration: 28F -> 25F
  • Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.5 -> 7
• Jab 2 Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.5 -> 7
• Ftilt:
  • Duration: 36F -> 33F
  • Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
  • Sour Hitbox X Position: 2 -> 2.5
  Dtilt:
  • Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 8.2
  • Sour Hitbox X/Y Position: 15.2/3.2 -> 16.7/2.7
  Nair:
  • Nair First Hit:
    • Sour/Tipper Damage: 3/4 -> 3.5/5
    • Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
  • Nair Second Hit:
    • Sour/Tipper Damage: 7/9 -> 7/9.5
    • Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.5 -> 7.5
• Fair:
  • Sour/Tipper Damage: 7/10 -> 8/11.5
  • Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
• Bair:
  • Tipper Damage: 12 -> 12.5
  • Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
  • Sour Hitbox X Position: 2 -> 2.5
• Uair Sour/Tipper Damage: 9/12 -> 9.5/13
• Dair Sour/Tipper/Meteor Damage: 11/13/14 -> 12/14/15
• Utilt Duration: 36F -> 33F
• Dsmash Duration: 64F -> 54F
• Dancing Blade:
• Startup: 7F -> 6F
• Total Ground/Air Duration: 42/32F -> 41/31F

Now, Marth shared most oof the changes that lucina had got in this patch but also got a few changes that were unique to himself, since Lucina does not have a tipper sweet spot on her sword. The damage buffs were across both Marth's sweet and sour spots. The sweet spot for marths sword also was enlarged making some things combo better and some things kill easier. This was one thing that made down throw up air a kill move now as it can reach the tipper spot of his sword in time to get a Ko around 80 to 100 percent depedning on the characters weight.

Now overall, I think these buffs were really needed as before the patch the characters were quite lack luster all around. Now that this patch is live I think these pcharacters are going to be com a lot more viable in competitive play and I think they might actually see some tournament use. The changes allowed for them to rack up damage easier, combo better, and to kill far earlier. Now their forward air can kill around 100% almost 25% earlier than it used to. Their jab also can combo into a forward or up smash for easy and free kills. Overall I think these characters have quite a bit of potential now. Marth is going to be better than Lucina because his tipper is easier to place now, and is far better than lucina's normal sword. Thanks for reading this and let me know if you feel they are going to see more play!

Information was retrieved from Smashboards

Character Analysis - Diddy Kong

Diddy Kong is a character that if you have played Smash 4 at all you know something about. He has been a top tier character since the game came out practically, with his deadly "Hoo Haa" combo that used to exist as a deadly kill option, but was later patched out. So, with out further ado, lets get into my analysis of Diddy Kong in the 1.1.4 patch.

Diddy Kong is a quick character that is medium weight and has a great combo game. his grab combos can get him lots of percent early on for almost no risk, and are easy to set up. His down special gives him access to grab a banana peel which he can use as an item to trip opponents ( or himself if the opponent throws it back) this banana peel is vital in his game play and will lead into your kill set ups and you grab combos. So Diddy kong wants to use his up throw, then is able to follow up into almost any of his aerials, the optimal one depends on the percentage the opponent is at, but it is a great tool for tacking on percents almost all the way to where it will kill. Diddy  Kong's speed makes him very scary as he can mix up and get in on you and get a free 20-25% because he got a grab. These can string together and make you deal up to 60% at very low risk , very quickly. Down air spikes at early percents, does 13% , and also can cause jab resets.

Diddy Kong's aerials are very important, his up air coming out on frame 4 is great for getting out of combos, and it is able to kill at high percents. His forward air does 10% and can string together very easily and make your opponent take lots of perecent because you landed one. His back air is a very quick move as well coming out on frame 5 and doing 9%, and it is a goo kill option and spacing option. His back air can also combo into itself up to three times if you time it correctly. Short hop into two back airs is a great tool for getting a early hit.

Didd'y kongs neutral b fires a peanut that also acts as an item and can be reversed in the air to help you have different movement options. Up b is good at recovering long distances but is easy to get gimped during. Side B can help you recover, but is a command grab that can kill of stage, or if you press b or a again after you side b, it will turn into a kicking attack, but be careful you can't stop this move in the air unless you hit the ground.

Now Diddy's most important tool is his down b, which grabs a banana. If you hit your opponent with this you can get some free smash attacks and early kills.

Overall, Diddy kong is for sure a top ten character that I really enjoy playing, but has a gimp-able recovery.

First Thoughts - Bayonetta

You've probably already heard a bunch about her, but Bayonetta seems amazing. Before the patch was released I wasn't that interested in her, but now that I have had time to play her and see her moves for myself, she is probably one of my favorite characters. Her base stats aren't great, she is a large target to hit, light, and rather slow. Her damage out put per move is low. But she combos beautifully. There are already combos for well over 50% . Like more combos that Ryu, the master of combos himself. Her bullet arts allow her to continue holding down the attack button after a move to fire guns that tack on extra percent, and are really dumb. They add up so quickly, allowing her to take an early lead. Her smash attacks are fairly disjointed and that is actually rather beneficial to her. she can usually smash and out reach some characters counters. She has an ability that activates when she is about to air dodge, or roll, or immediately after, that if she would be hit, she takes half the damage, no knock back, and instead appears behind the attacker and gets ready to punish them. This ability called, The Bat Within, is something that makes her really unique. This makes her air dodge and roll options a lot safer than any other character, and will help her live. She could potentially be clipped by a smash attack at 999% and then if timed right, Bat within would activate and percent her from taking knock back. Which if you ask me seems over powered, but we will see how useful it turns out. The other thing I want to talk about is her "counter". Her down special activates Witch time, if she is hit during the time frame she activates it, the attacker becomes slowed. During this time they move slower even from knock back, meaning you can link together many attacks for almost free. Down smash can lead into a forward smash. Combo all her specials onto the opponent. Whatever you feel like doing, it can probably work because it slows the opponent for quite a while. After using it multiple times, the time it slows people decreases, but still it is powerful. It can be used against characters with up specials that do damage when they are trying to recover to gimp them. This is going to be very useful in competitive play. Speaking of which, I see Bayonetta being very high ranked in competitive play. Her combos are actually ridiculous. She can true combo some characters into death from zero percent. And she was released yesterday... I can't wait to see where the meta game will take her. I know I am going to be playing her and testing her out.  Another interesting thing, her up special can be used multiple times in the air, allowing you to do things like this "Jump, Up special, Double jump, Up Special, Side Special" and have a very good recovery. Her side special resets when you hit an opponent, allowing you to combo it multiple times in the air, and if you fast fall before doing it, you shoot diagonally down instead of diagonally up, which can be used to mix up recovery, or link combos together. Overall, love the character, looks really good, and will be a competitor in the meta game.

First Thoughts - Corrin

Corrin was the character I was most excited for when I heard about the three characters being released during the final Smash Direct. Corrin seemed like an interesting twist on a swordsman, and seemed almost like the dragoon class from the Final Fantasy games. The trailer that was shown hyped the character quite a bit, showing off some of the more iconic things she can do. Right away when I downloaded her, I didn't feel the interest I thought I would when it came to playing her. The character is good, don't get me wrong, just not what I was hoping. Her moves are all very obvious, just like every other swordsman. Her specials are what makes her unique, and really what elevates her over the other swordsman in the game. My friend took a liking to Corrin and I must admit, she can be really good when played properly. He does an amazing job with the character and I think he really showed me that she is going to be someone that I have to look out for.

Let's talk about some of her moves. Her side special turns her arm into a lance, pinning herself and opponents caught in the way to the stage. Out of this she can swing forward or behind her to attack incoming opponents. This move is really powerful, kills, and is a solid mix up. Her up special is really good too. It kills at high mid percents, and recovers quite a long way. I have seen it be fairly easy to get stuck under stages, but that could be because the character is still new. I think that her recovery is sub par, but the up B is still good none the less. Down special is a counter that attacks on both sides and is crazy powerful. Easily the best counter in the game. I think that this will elevate her play level a lot. Her neutral special stuns opponents by shooting out a ball of energy, kind of similar to Zero Suit Samus' Neutral B, but does more damage. It also hurts enemies who try to attack you from the front after, as the mouth of a dragon shuts on them. Her grab and throws aren't great. I don't know everything about them but back throw can combo into side b which is quite a bit of percent. Forward smash is insane. Probably one of the best in the game. Does insane damage, knock back, and has a sweet spot at the end of it that kills so early. Not to mention it has absolutely absurd range. like it covers at least a fifth of most stages... Ridiculous. Other smashes aren't great, up smash has a hard to hit sweet spot but works well when it hits similar to Wii Fit Trainer. Down Smash hits in both directions simultaneously, fairly good for covering the ledge get up options. Up air kills early. Back air, Neutral air and Forward air all auto cancel off of a short hop. Forward air has great range and speed. Down air dives down and spikes yourself and your opponent. Overall, I love the character, just not one that I see myself playing currently.

Patch 1.1.4 Discussion

February 3rd, 2015 at about 5 pm PST, we received what might just be the last Super Smash Bros. for Wii U patch. Now it isn't confirmed that it is the last, but it is the last major one we are receiving. It contained a few character changes, including one for almost all the Fire Emblem characters, but more importantly it introduced two new characters into the game. Yesterday we got Corrin, a shape shifting Dragon Swordsman/ woman ( yes Corrin has both male and female skins similar to Robin. Corrin specializes in close combat, but has a single projectile move,  one that shoots a charged ball of energy directly ahead that stuns the opponent. This move deals massive damage and can lead into combos. Corrin overall looks like a very interesting character, has a crazy powerful counter, and feels very fluid to play. But, we didn't just get Corrin, we also got another new character named Bayonetta. Bayonetta is a witch who hunts angels (Watch out Pit!) and specializes in the use of guns. She can summon the limbs of demons to perform her smash attacks which do crazy amounts of damage, and she can use her bullet arts to tack on percent while using other moves, or continue to fire guns after her moves have finished. These bullets deal 1 percent, but do no knock back or stun, similar to fox's lasers. Bayonetta's moves don't deal much damage on her own besides her smash attacks, but combo really well.

Many of the Fire Emblem characters received buffs this patch to their damage output. Lucina had her aerial damage and smash damage increased, Marth had his damage increased almost across the board. Ike received another buff even after his one previously that allowed him to have lots of combos off of his throws. His forward aerial has an increased damage output and so does the base damage of eruption. Roy received a reduction in landing lag on all his aerial moves, which will help him be slightly safer on shields.

In other news, the three top characters, Zero Suit Samus, Shiek, Rosalina and Luma, all received a weight reduction of one point, which may not seem like a lot, but will cause them to die a few percent earlier, which means a lot when they were already so light. 

Overall, pretty solid patch.